tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33891985.post3832548686434953868..comments2020-02-21T07:09:55.124+00:00Comments on Chipping Away At Churchianity: Crunchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00218148147949487600noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33891985.post-27614738997252700202010-03-15T16:05:37.090+00:002010-03-15T16:05:37.090+00:00Part 2
TEACHER - INSTRUCTOR - 5
MKJV - Nor be cal...Part 2<br /><br />TEACHER - INSTRUCTOR - 5<br />MKJV - Nor be called teachers, <br />for One is your Teacher, even Christ.<br /><br />NIV - Nor are you to be called ‘teacher’, <br />for you have one Teacher, the Christ.<br /><br />NKJV - And do not be called teachers; <br />for One is your Teacher, the Christ.<br /><br />Dby - Neither be called instructors, <br />for one is your instructor, the Christ.<br /><br />NRSV - Nor are you to be called instructors, <br />for you have one instructor, the Messiah.<br /><br /><br />BBE - And you may not be named guides: <br />because one is your Guide, even Christ.<br /><br /><br />YLT - nor may ye be called directors, <br />for one is your director--the Christ.<br /><br />Leader - 14<br /><br />Master - 11<br /><br />Teacher - instructor - 5<br /><br />Guide - 1<br /><br />Director - 1<br /><br />There does seem to be room for debate.<br /><br />The reason I use to use “Leader” in Mat 23:10.<br />Is in Mat 23:8 Jesus tells “His Disciples”<br />NOT to be called Rabbi ( teacher - Yes?)<br />for one is your master/teacher, even Christ.<br />And all ye are brethren.<br /><br />On My computer there are 27 versions.<br />17 versions have teacher or instructor in the verse.<br /><br />In my simple thinking; why would Jesus say in<br />Mat 23:8 Don’t be called rabbi/teacher. And in...<br />Mat 23:10 Don’t be called master/teacher.<br />Does He really say don’t be called “Teacher”twice?<br /><br />That’s why I’m just a little bit stubborn on this.<br /><br />And I like your take on the compound for <br />master - #2519 kathegetes in Mat 23:10.<br />#2596 kata + #2233 hegeomai<br />There is a sneaky reason I like it.<br /><br />In Heb 13:7. Heb 13:17. Heb 13:24. <br />Where “Leader” or “have the rule over’ is used.<br /><br />It is #2233 hegeomai. Hmmm?<br /><br />Did you know #2233 hegeoma is also “esteem?”<br /><br />Php 2:3 <br />Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; <br />but in lowliness of mind let each <br />“esteem” #2233 other better than themselves.<br /><br />1Thes 5:13 <br />And to “esteem” #2233 them very highly <br />in love for their work’s sake<br /><br />Yes, I do enjoy reseaching and debating the scriptures.<br />I hope you do also.<br /><br />IMO - “Pastor/Leader” is a very dangerous postion.<br />For both the “Leader and those being ”Led.”<br /><br />In my experience...<br /><br />Titles become idols.<br />Pastors become masters.A. Amos Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13380832298820984354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33891985.post-87359692253726249582010-03-15T16:04:11.042+00:002010-03-15T16:04:11.042+00:00Crunch
Thanks - If you don't answer right awa...Crunch<br /><br />Thanks - If you don't answer right away<br />That's okay by me. I'll understand.<br /><br />Like the way you went to the scriptures to<br />advocate for “Leaders” today, in “The Church.”<br /><br />From your “Bible version” and “Tradition”<br />I can understand your strong feelings.<br /><br />I do wonder why you used those scriptures?<br />Most all spoke about “Men” being “Leaders.”<br />“None” spoke about “Women” being “Leaders.”<br /><br />You’re not advocating that <br />“only men” should be “Leaders” are you? ;-)<br /><br />You did a fine job, BUT,<br />I’m still not convinced about “Leaders.” Oy Vey!<br />Yes, I’ve been called stuborn and hard headed.<br />Please, treat me gently. Have mercy.<br /><br />You write about Mat 23:10...<br />“The Greek is rarely translated 'leader' ‘<br /><br />Here is what I’ve found for Mat 23:10 in 32 <br />Bible versions on my computer and book shelves.<br /><br />LEADERS - 14<br />ED - Neither be ye called leaders; <br />one for of you is the leader, the Anointed.<br /><br />GLT - Nor be called leaders, <br />for One is your Leader, the Christ.<br /><br />LO - Neither assume the title of leaders,<br />for you have only one leader--who is the Messiah.<br /><br />MNT - And call no one ‘Leader,’ <br />because One is your leader, even the Christ.<br /><br />NAS95 -Do not be called leaders; <br />for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.<br /><br />NASB - And do not be called leaders; <br />for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.<br /><br />Phil <br />And you must not let people call you ‘leaders’<br />you have only one leader, Christ!<br /><br />Roth - Neither be called leaders, <br />for, your leader, is one, the Christ;<br /><br />TCNT <br />Nor must you allow yourselves to be called ‘Leaders,’ for you have only one Leader, the Christ.<br /><br />Wey - And do not accept the name of ‘leader,’ <br />for your Leader is one alone--the Christ.<br /><br />The Interlinear Bible <br />Nor be called leaders, <br />for one is your leader the Christ.<br /><br />Phillips Modern English <br />you must not let people call you leaders, <br />you have only one leader, Christ.<br /><br />Today's English Version <br />nor should you be called leader. <br />your one and only leader is the Messiah.<br /><br />The Amplified<br />you must not be called masters ( leaders ) <br />for you have one master ( leader ) the Christ.<br /><br /><br />MASTERS. - 11<br />ASV - Neither be ye called masters: <br />for one is your master, even the Christ.<br /><br />KJV - Wes Neither be ye called masters; <br />for one is your Master, even Christ.<br /><br />DRV - Neither be ye called masters: <br />for one is your master, Christ.<br /><br />HNV - Neither be called masters, <br />for one is your master, the Messiah.<br /><br />KJ21 - Neither be ye called masters, <br />for One is your Master, even Christ.<br /><br />NLT - And don’t let anyone call you ‘Master,’ <br />for there is only one master, the Messiah.<br /><br />RSV - Neither be called masters, <br />for you have one master, the Christ.<br /><br />RWB - Neither be ye called masters: <br />for one is your Master, even Christ.<br /><br />WB - Neither be ye called masters: <br />for one is your master, even Christ.<br /><br />WEB - Neither be called masters, <br />for one is your master, the Christ.<br /><br />Wes - Neither be ye called masters; <br />for one is your Master, even Christ.<br /><br />Part 1A. Amos Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13380832298820984354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33891985.post-64417667366923517322010-03-15T08:01:21.633+00:002010-03-15T08:01:21.633+00:00I will reply..but I have a busy day ahead...I will reply..but I have a busy day ahead...Crunchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218148147949487600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33891985.post-90766603390882894352010-03-14T22:47:50.487+00:002010-03-14T22:47:50.487+00:00Crunch
Ouch!!! That hurt... :-(...
You write...
...Crunch<br /><br />Ouch!!! That hurt... :-(...<br /><br />You write...<br />“You seem to jump to many conclusions about <br />my integrity and my theology in these matters...<br />maybe you need to re-examine your theological <br />understanding of the notion of judgementalism <br />which Jesus warns us so sternly against?”<br /><br />My deepest apologies for offending you.<br />I was not thinking about or arriving at<br />any conclusions about your integrity.<br /><br />Please forgive me...<br /><br />I would love to continue the conversation,<br />the debate, about “Leaders,” “Priests” and “Bishops.”<br /><br />If you’re willing...<br /><br />If not, I’ll understand...<br /><br />We seemed to have arrived at <br />some different conclusions from the scriptures.<br /><br />Believe it or not,<br />I’m FOR women using ALL the gifts of the Spirit,<br />being free to minister as the Lord leads them,<br />in “The Church of God,” in the body of Christ.<br /><br />In His Service, By His Grace.A. Amos Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13380832298820984354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33891985.post-10051206006684486092010-03-14T21:50:42.190+00:002010-03-14T21:50:42.190+00:00Firstly I need to point out that the word 'lea...Firstly I need to point out that the word 'leader' is commonly used by both sides of the discussion. Rod Thomas himself talks of leadership in the first quotation I cited.<br />Secondly and more importantly: you are mistaken that the writers of the New Testament did not refer to the apostles and other notable servants of the early church as leaders...<br />Acts 15:22 "Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers."<br />Romans 12:7-8<br />"If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully."<br />Hebrews 13:7<br />"Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith."<br />Hebrews 13:17<br />"Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."<br />Hebrews 13:24<br />"Greet all your leaders and all God's people. Those from Italy send you their greetings."<br />Thirdly: the Greek word in Matthew 23 that you used to argue that Jesus commands us not to be called a leader is actually usually translated teacher or master. The Greek is rarely translated 'leader' because that isn't really the meaning of the word. Strong's Greek dictionary says the following about it: "Original Word: καθηγητής<br />Transliteration: kathégétés<br />Phonetic Spelling: (kath-ayg-ay-tace')master, teacher<br /><br />From a compound of kata and hegeomai; a guide, i.e. (figuratively) a teacher -- master." <br />Therefore as I have shown, the Bible DOES use the word 'leader' to describe those chosen to help, nourish and support the people of God. Yes of course we are called to be servants. I passionately believe in servant leadership as Christ himself modelled when he washed the disciples feet. No, I do not see leadership as a 'high place' as you suggest. Finally, yes I do take my discipleship of Christ very seriously! He is my Lord and I will have no other. You seem to jump to many conclusions about my integrity and my theology in these matters...maybe you need to re-examine your theological understanding of the notion of judgementalism which Jesus warns us so sternly against? I do not know, I know not what is in your heart. You do however, need to balance your quotations from scripture with careful exegesis of the original Greek (rather than relying on translations which suit your own arguments) and to develop a more considered understanding of other Christian perspectives.Crunchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218148147949487600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33891985.post-22735897416927637152010-03-14T20:31:48.251+00:002010-03-14T20:31:48.251+00:00Crunch
Maybe you can help me?
From the little I’...Crunch<br /><br />Maybe you can help me?<br /><br />From the little I’ve read<br />seems you want women to be <br />“Leaders” “Priests” and “Bishops.”<br /><br />Why?<br /><br />The word “leader” seems like a “high place.” Yes?<br />Jesus always recommended the “low place.” Yes?<br /><br />Jesus humbled Himself, <br />made himself of no reputation<br />and took on the form of a “servant.” <br />Php 2:7<br /><br />How do “you” reconcile the use of the word “leader”<br />when “Jesus” told “His disciples” <br />“NOT to be called leader?”<br /><br />If the men have NOT obeyed scripture?<br />Why do you want to follow them?<br /><br />Jesus in Mat 23:10 told His disciples “NOT” to call<br />themselves master/“leaders” <br />for you have one master/"leader” the Christ.<br /><br />King James Version - <br />Neither be ye called masters: <br />for one is your Master, even Christ.<br /><br />The Interlinear Bible - <br />Nor be called leaders, <br />for one is your leader the Christ.<br /><br />Phillips Modern English - <br />you must not let people call you leaders, <br />you have only one leader, Christ.<br /><br />Today's English Version - <br />nor should you be called leader. <br />your one and only leader is the Messiah.<br /><br />The Amplified- <br />you must not be called masters ( leaders ) <br />for you have one master ( leader ) the Christ.<br /><br />Jesus told His disciples not to be called "leaders" <br />and “none” did.<br /><br />Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, <br />Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, <br />Col 4:12 Epaphras...a servant of Christ,<br />Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,<br />Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God <br />2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant<br /><br />His disciples all called themselves "servants,"<br />none called themselves "leaders." None? None.<br />None called themselves "servant-leader." None.<br /><br />If Jesus instructed “His disciples” <br />NOT to call themselves “leaders”<br />and someone calls them self a "leader" <br />or thinks they are a "leader;"<br /><br />Are they a "Disciple of Christ?"<br /><br />If that is your choice...<br />"Disciple of Christ?" Or, “Leader?”<br /><br />Which one do you choose?<br /><br />Be blessed and be a blessing...A. Amos Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13380832298820984354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33891985.post-29222869918402183092010-03-04T09:01:20.036+00:002010-03-04T09:01:20.036+00:00Hi Karen,
Sorry I haven't replied sooner..my ...Hi Karen,<br /><br />Sorry I haven't replied sooner..my email didn't tell me that you had aleft a comment and I only noticed it whrn I was trawling through the settings today. <br />Thank you for the link..i have visited her blog on occasion and it does look very helpful.<br /><br />GillCrunchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218148147949487600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33891985.post-54484075001399817252010-03-04T08:31:19.770+00:002010-03-04T08:31:19.770+00:00Have you read Cheryl Schatz' blog, 'Women ...Have you read Cheryl Schatz' blog, 'Women in Ministry'? <br />http://strivetoenter.com/wim/<br /><br />She has such excellent bible studies on all the verses the 'complementarians' argue with.Curate Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04209317942574766814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33891985.post-54746118173252317852010-02-16T23:06:01.829+00:002010-02-16T23:06:01.829+00:00Reform! They really annoy me (sorry!)I honestly ca...Reform! They really annoy me (sorry!)I honestly can't see that their reasons for being opposed in conscience to the ministry of women are any more than a misogynistic belief that women are lesser than men and not made in God's image in the same way. As you say, their arguments are full of holes and very selective, completely failing to look at the whole sweep of the gospel and the radical inclusion of women in Christ's ministry and teaching and in the early church.<br /><br />Well, that's got that off my chest for now...Suemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03128736092253293640noreply@blogger.com